Mythos - Leistung durch schmalere Kette?
- Terrini
- Pimperella die Fruchtbarkeitsgöttin
- Beiträge: 7034
- Registriert: 18 Sep 2002 17:59
- ZXR-Modellreihe: anderes Mopped
- Kontaktdaten:
Mythos - Leistung durch schmalere Kette?
Immer wieder wird die Frage gestellt, ob man eine kleinere Kette als Original aufziehen kann/darf, und was das bringt etc. Es soll Gewichtsersparnis und Leistung bingen so die Verfechter der kleineren Ketten, alles Humbug und zudem noch gefährlich sagt die Gegenseite.
Sofern man der Englischen Sprache ein weinig mächtig ist, nachfolgend mal ein paar Zeilen zu einem Test.
Hier der Link dazu http://www.superstreetbike.com/howtos/1 ... ewall.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For better or worse, tall tales and inflated stories follow the streetbike scene like white on rice. When we repeatedly heard of 10 HP gains from a 520-chain swap we decided to investigate the claims.
For those unaware, streetbike chains come in many forms; from different sizes to O-ring or non O-ring designs. Most bikes are equipped with a 525 chain, and as the displacement and power increases so does the chain size, eventually reaching a 530. As designs go, non O-ring chains tend to be more efficient, but don’t last as long since the lack of rubber rings increases wear. As a result, most streetbikes use O-ring chains for longevity’s sake while racebikes and dirtbikes trade durability for maximum power.
As chain technology has progressed so has the strength of the metal ropes, and in recent years racers and street riders have discovered that even larger bikes equipped with a hefty 530 chain from the factory can safely swap to a lighter 520 setup. Swapping to the smaller, narrower combo not only drops weight, but the lack of material also cuts down on friction and increases power—so the myth goes.
With the same gear ration...
read full caption
The test
Since exactness had to be a priority we ensured that all dyno runs were made on the same dyno over the course of roughly 45 minutes. In addition to dyno pulls at normal oil and coolant operating temperatures, we also took the average of three timed fourth gear acceleration runs from 25-125 MPH.
A Kawasaki Ninja 1000 was brought up to temp and then run through the aforementioned tests. After the baseline numbers were determined we left the bike strapped on the dyno and replaced the OEM equipment with the RK 520 GXW chain and Vortex CAT5 sprockets. To keep the results as accurate as possible the gearing remained the same (15/41) since a smaller or larger sprocket creates more or less chain wrap, thus altering the numbers due to frictional changes.
In addition to the dyno and acceleration tests, all stock and aftermarket components were weighed on the same scale.
Myth: Confirmed
When the smoke cleared and the averages were calculated, the Ninja 1000 gained 1.5 HP and 1.4 LB-FT at the rear wheel and knocked off .05 seconds in the 25-125 MPH fourth gear dyno acceleration test.
Although the increases were small, it’s proof that a 520 conversion—without changing the gearing—does improve performance. The dyno results and acceleration tests were consistently better than the stock setup, and the 1.8-pound weight savings is a plus. In addition to the increased performance, the aesthetical improvements are reason enough to make the swap.
Only you can be the judge if such a setup is in your future, but we can safely say a 520 conversion is a beneficial mod. In reality we wouldn’t waste a perfectly good stock chain and sprockets. Instead use your current combo until it’s worn out, then make the change. As for the claims of 10 HP or more, leave those for the bench racers–a 520 conversion won’t drastically alter performance, but every little bit helps.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average horsepower and torque over three runs
Stock: 118.2 HP/70.5 LB-FT
520 Conversion: 119.7 HP/71.9 LB-FT
Average time for fourth gear 25-125 MPH acceleration test
Stock: 5.2 seconds
520 Conversion: 5.15 seconds
Stock component weights
530 Chain: 4.8 pounds
Countershaft sprocket: 0.50 pounds
Rear sprocket: 1.8 pounds
Total: 7.1 pounds
RK and Vortex component weights
520 Chain: 4.1 pounds
Countershaft sprocket: 0.4 pounds
Rear sprocket: 0.8 pounds
Total: 5.3 pounds
1.8 Total Pounds Saved.
Read more: http://www.superstreetbike.com/howtos/1 ... z2OjEsigvf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sofern man der Englischen Sprache ein weinig mächtig ist, nachfolgend mal ein paar Zeilen zu einem Test.
Hier der Link dazu http://www.superstreetbike.com/howtos/1 ... ewall.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For better or worse, tall tales and inflated stories follow the streetbike scene like white on rice. When we repeatedly heard of 10 HP gains from a 520-chain swap we decided to investigate the claims.
For those unaware, streetbike chains come in many forms; from different sizes to O-ring or non O-ring designs. Most bikes are equipped with a 525 chain, and as the displacement and power increases so does the chain size, eventually reaching a 530. As designs go, non O-ring chains tend to be more efficient, but don’t last as long since the lack of rubber rings increases wear. As a result, most streetbikes use O-ring chains for longevity’s sake while racebikes and dirtbikes trade durability for maximum power.
As chain technology has progressed so has the strength of the metal ropes, and in recent years racers and street riders have discovered that even larger bikes equipped with a hefty 530 chain from the factory can safely swap to a lighter 520 setup. Swapping to the smaller, narrower combo not only drops weight, but the lack of material also cuts down on friction and increases power—so the myth goes.
With the same gear ration...
read full caption
The test
Since exactness had to be a priority we ensured that all dyno runs were made on the same dyno over the course of roughly 45 minutes. In addition to dyno pulls at normal oil and coolant operating temperatures, we also took the average of three timed fourth gear acceleration runs from 25-125 MPH.
A Kawasaki Ninja 1000 was brought up to temp and then run through the aforementioned tests. After the baseline numbers were determined we left the bike strapped on the dyno and replaced the OEM equipment with the RK 520 GXW chain and Vortex CAT5 sprockets. To keep the results as accurate as possible the gearing remained the same (15/41) since a smaller or larger sprocket creates more or less chain wrap, thus altering the numbers due to frictional changes.
In addition to the dyno and acceleration tests, all stock and aftermarket components were weighed on the same scale.
Myth: Confirmed
When the smoke cleared and the averages were calculated, the Ninja 1000 gained 1.5 HP and 1.4 LB-FT at the rear wheel and knocked off .05 seconds in the 25-125 MPH fourth gear dyno acceleration test.
Although the increases were small, it’s proof that a 520 conversion—without changing the gearing—does improve performance. The dyno results and acceleration tests were consistently better than the stock setup, and the 1.8-pound weight savings is a plus. In addition to the increased performance, the aesthetical improvements are reason enough to make the swap.
Only you can be the judge if such a setup is in your future, but we can safely say a 520 conversion is a beneficial mod. In reality we wouldn’t waste a perfectly good stock chain and sprockets. Instead use your current combo until it’s worn out, then make the change. As for the claims of 10 HP or more, leave those for the bench racers–a 520 conversion won’t drastically alter performance, but every little bit helps.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average horsepower and torque over three runs
Stock: 118.2 HP/70.5 LB-FT
520 Conversion: 119.7 HP/71.9 LB-FT
Average time for fourth gear 25-125 MPH acceleration test
Stock: 5.2 seconds
520 Conversion: 5.15 seconds
Stock component weights
530 Chain: 4.8 pounds
Countershaft sprocket: 0.50 pounds
Rear sprocket: 1.8 pounds
Total: 7.1 pounds
RK and Vortex component weights
520 Chain: 4.1 pounds
Countershaft sprocket: 0.4 pounds
Rear sprocket: 0.8 pounds
Total: 5.3 pounds
1.8 Total Pounds Saved.
Read more: http://www.superstreetbike.com/howtos/1 ... z2OjEsigvf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
keinen Bock mehr auf Signaturen
Re: Mythos - Leistung durch schmalere Kette?
Terrini hat geschrieben:a 520 conversion won’t drastically alter performance, but every little bit helps.
Mitas
- Terrini
- Pimperella die Fruchtbarkeitsgöttin
- Beiträge: 7034
- Registriert: 18 Sep 2002 17:59
- ZXR-Modellreihe: anderes Mopped
- Kontaktdaten:
Re: Mythos - Leistung durch schmalere Kette?
Genau, Kratzi .Kratzi hat geschrieben:Terrini hat geschrieben:a 520 conversion won’t drastically alter performance, but every little bit helps.
Und wenn eh ein Wechsel ansteht, dann sind es vergleichbare günstige Pferde, die man hinzu bekommt.
Übrigens ist auch die Verwendung des "richtigen" Kettenfetts ausschlaggebend für Leistung oder eben nicht.
Wir haben mal - laaange ist es her, mit einer FZR1000 Prüfstandläufe gemacht. Dabei ging es primär darum, ob verschiedene Kettenfette Leistung kosten.
Ja, so was hat uns damals interessiert .
Zu dem Test veranlasste uns ein wirklich grandioses Kettenfett von Czech (gibt´s wohl heute immer noch), welches sich durch ein sehr gutes Abschleuderverhalten auszeichnete und an der Kette haftete wie Pech.
Machen wir es kurz. Wie (leider) vermutet, hat das Czech einiges an Leistung "gefressen", da es maßgeblich auf die Knickwinkel der Kette Einfluß genommen hat. Damals in der Masse angebotene Kettenfette, hatte alle eine höhere (normale) Leistungsausbeute zur Folge.
keinen Bock mehr auf Signaturen
Re: Mythos - Leistung durch schmalere Kette?
Schade dass die nich im Bereich getestet haben wo's wirklich bemerkbar wird, d.h. bei höchster Geschwindigkeit mit ordentlich Flieh- und Umlenkkräften an Kette. Und dann vielleicht auch keine gedrosselte Maschine. Aber im oberen Drehzahlbereich sieht man's ja auch so schön.
- Super Rider
- ZXR-Guru
- Beiträge: 4065
- Registriert: 31 Okt 2008 22:39
- ZXR-Modellreihe: J (91/92)
Art & Science: Fooling the Dyno
wenn schon dabei, das hier könnte auch interessant sein:
(sportrider.com)
------------------
Art & Science: Fooling the Dyno
We've known for some time now that repeatable, consistent dyno readings depend on a number of factors, and one anomaly that crops up now and again is tire selection and wear. The scenario can play out in a number of ways, but here are the two we most commonly encounter:
One is the sportbike rider who goes to his local shop for a tuneup and new tires, and his bike leaves the shop with less horsepower than it went in with. Another is the racer competing in a horsepower-limited class. He dynos his bike several times over the course of a weekend and is well under the maximum amount allowed, but after the race and a celebratory burnout, his bike is suddenly over the limit.
The common element in both cases is tires, and not that either bike makes more or less horsepower. The sportbike rider who replaces his bald tire with a heavier new bun loses power. The racer who strips off rubber with his burnout gains power. Why is this? To find out, we spent a day at our dyno with inquiring minds and a stack of tires.
The Theory:
We've extensively covered dynamometers and how they work ("Dyno-Might!" Feb. 2001, also online at http://www.sportrider.com/0406" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), and the important fact here is that the more common dynos are of the inertia type. Using a drum with a known Moment of Inertia (MoI), torque can be calculated by measuring how fast a bike can accelerate the drum. Knowing torque and rpm, horsepower can then be calculated.If the weight (or, more specifically, the MoI) difference between two tires is significant relative to the drum, that will change how quickly the drum accelerates--and hence how much horsepower is measured. To find out exactly how great this effect is, we ran our '04 Kawasaki ZX-6R on our SuperFlow CycleDyn (http://www.superflow.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, 800/471-7701) with three different tires. Figure 1 shows their weight and MoI differences.While our SuperFlow CycleDyn is an eddy-current dynamometer, the entire system (consisting of the drum itself along with the eddy-current apparatus and a large drum-driven fan) has a known inertia value and can be used as an inertia dyno. For our standard dyno testing, we use a "controlled run," which places a small amount of eddy-current load on the bike. Still, the majority of the load is from the inertia of the system, and as we will see, the tire's MoI plays a big role.
We ran our standard test procedure, which involves performing successive dyno runs until maximum peak horsepower is reached--generally, as the engine heats up an optimum temperature will be reached and passed. We repeated these tests for each tire, with the results shown in Figure 2. The heavier tires showed a significant drop in horsepower compared to the lighter tire. While the peak horsepower for the Bridgestone BT-001 was slightly more than the heavier Metzeler MEZ4, in general the graph was somewhat lower, reflecting the higher MoI of the much taller BT-001. The difference between the lighter and heavier tires is definitely enough that tire selection is one dyno-testing variable that must be tightly controlled.
To find out if the change in gearing due to the taller tire plays a part, we repeated our test for the BT-001 using fifth gear instead of fourth (our usual method). The results, graphed in Figure 3, showed slightly more horsepower at lower rpm with the taller gear, but a virtually identical curve at higher rpm.Another concern with different tires is slippage on the dynamometer's drum during a test. Our CycleDyn includes an apparatus that can check for any wheelspin between the drum and tire. One nice aspect of the SuperFlow dyno is that the drum has a large diameter, which better approximates a real road surface than a smaller drum, and allows for a large contact patch. We check for wheelspin occasionally (see the picture on pg. 114), and even on our turbocharged Hayabusa, which pumped out more than 200 horsepower ("Blow Your Own," Oct. 2002), we've never had a problem.
As a final test to satisfy another curiosity, we ran the same tire at three different pressures to determine if that affected the outcome. Using the BT-012 at 25, 35 and then 45 psi, we found virtually no difference in horsepower across the rev band.While gearing and tire pressure may not play a big part in dyno readings, it's always best to eliminate as many variables as possible in any form of testing. That means using the same tire model with a consistent amount of wear. Next time you're scratching your head over a dyno run, check your back tire--you may find a couple of free horsepower. -SR
We tried three different tires on our 2004 Kawasaki ZX-6R for this dyno test. The well-worn stock Bridgestone BT-012 was the lightest, and the Metzeler MEZ4 was the heaviest. The 190/55-17 Bridgestone BT-001, slightly lighter than the MEZ4, had the highest MoI because it's a much larger tire:Tire/Weight (lbs.) including wheel/Moment of Inertia (lbs. square inch)
Bridgestone BT-012/28.50/2061
Metzeler MEZ4/31.92/2545
Bridgestone BT-001/31.80/2594
-----------------------------------------------
Q: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0406 ... ewall.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
.
(sportrider.com)
------------------
Art & Science: Fooling the Dyno
We've known for some time now that repeatable, consistent dyno readings depend on a number of factors, and one anomaly that crops up now and again is tire selection and wear. The scenario can play out in a number of ways, but here are the two we most commonly encounter:
One is the sportbike rider who goes to his local shop for a tuneup and new tires, and his bike leaves the shop with less horsepower than it went in with. Another is the racer competing in a horsepower-limited class. He dynos his bike several times over the course of a weekend and is well under the maximum amount allowed, but after the race and a celebratory burnout, his bike is suddenly over the limit.
The common element in both cases is tires, and not that either bike makes more or less horsepower. The sportbike rider who replaces his bald tire with a heavier new bun loses power. The racer who strips off rubber with his burnout gains power. Why is this? To find out, we spent a day at our dyno with inquiring minds and a stack of tires.
The Theory:
We've extensively covered dynamometers and how they work ("Dyno-Might!" Feb. 2001, also online at http://www.sportrider.com/0406" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), and the important fact here is that the more common dynos are of the inertia type. Using a drum with a known Moment of Inertia (MoI), torque can be calculated by measuring how fast a bike can accelerate the drum. Knowing torque and rpm, horsepower can then be calculated.If the weight (or, more specifically, the MoI) difference between two tires is significant relative to the drum, that will change how quickly the drum accelerates--and hence how much horsepower is measured. To find out exactly how great this effect is, we ran our '04 Kawasaki ZX-6R on our SuperFlow CycleDyn (http://www.superflow.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, 800/471-7701) with three different tires. Figure 1 shows their weight and MoI differences.While our SuperFlow CycleDyn is an eddy-current dynamometer, the entire system (consisting of the drum itself along with the eddy-current apparatus and a large drum-driven fan) has a known inertia value and can be used as an inertia dyno. For our standard dyno testing, we use a "controlled run," which places a small amount of eddy-current load on the bike. Still, the majority of the load is from the inertia of the system, and as we will see, the tire's MoI plays a big role.
We ran our standard test procedure, which involves performing successive dyno runs until maximum peak horsepower is reached--generally, as the engine heats up an optimum temperature will be reached and passed. We repeated these tests for each tire, with the results shown in Figure 2. The heavier tires showed a significant drop in horsepower compared to the lighter tire. While the peak horsepower for the Bridgestone BT-001 was slightly more than the heavier Metzeler MEZ4, in general the graph was somewhat lower, reflecting the higher MoI of the much taller BT-001. The difference between the lighter and heavier tires is definitely enough that tire selection is one dyno-testing variable that must be tightly controlled.
To find out if the change in gearing due to the taller tire plays a part, we repeated our test for the BT-001 using fifth gear instead of fourth (our usual method). The results, graphed in Figure 3, showed slightly more horsepower at lower rpm with the taller gear, but a virtually identical curve at higher rpm.Another concern with different tires is slippage on the dynamometer's drum during a test. Our CycleDyn includes an apparatus that can check for any wheelspin between the drum and tire. One nice aspect of the SuperFlow dyno is that the drum has a large diameter, which better approximates a real road surface than a smaller drum, and allows for a large contact patch. We check for wheelspin occasionally (see the picture on pg. 114), and even on our turbocharged Hayabusa, which pumped out more than 200 horsepower ("Blow Your Own," Oct. 2002), we've never had a problem.
As a final test to satisfy another curiosity, we ran the same tire at three different pressures to determine if that affected the outcome. Using the BT-012 at 25, 35 and then 45 psi, we found virtually no difference in horsepower across the rev band.While gearing and tire pressure may not play a big part in dyno readings, it's always best to eliminate as many variables as possible in any form of testing. That means using the same tire model with a consistent amount of wear. Next time you're scratching your head over a dyno run, check your back tire--you may find a couple of free horsepower. -SR
We tried three different tires on our 2004 Kawasaki ZX-6R for this dyno test. The well-worn stock Bridgestone BT-012 was the lightest, and the Metzeler MEZ4 was the heaviest. The 190/55-17 Bridgestone BT-001, slightly lighter than the MEZ4, had the highest MoI because it's a much larger tire:Tire/Weight (lbs.) including wheel/Moment of Inertia (lbs. square inch)
Bridgestone BT-012/28.50/2061
Metzeler MEZ4/31.92/2545
Bridgestone BT-001/31.80/2594
-----------------------------------------------
Q: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0406 ... ewall.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
.
Re: Mythos - Leistung durch schmalere Kette?
Ein interessanter Test
wirklich merken wird man die gestiegene Leistung am Hinterrad nicht denke ich, aber spielt keine Rolle - die Leistung ist gestiegen.
Und eben der doch recht hohe Gewichtsvorteil.
Habs ja erst vor 2 Wochen selber gemerkt als ich die 530 in der einen und die 520 in der anderen Hand und dann das gleiche nochaml umgekehrt hatte.
Das merkt man schon.
Und einfacher kann man nicht Gewicht sparen denke ich.
Reißen wird die Kette nicht, da bin ich mir sehr sicher.
Also alles im grünen Bereich wie ich finde
wirklich merken wird man die gestiegene Leistung am Hinterrad nicht denke ich, aber spielt keine Rolle - die Leistung ist gestiegen.
Und eben der doch recht hohe Gewichtsvorteil.
Habs ja erst vor 2 Wochen selber gemerkt als ich die 530 in der einen und die 520 in der anderen Hand und dann das gleiche nochaml umgekehrt hatte.
Das merkt man schon.
Und einfacher kann man nicht Gewicht sparen denke ich.
Reißen wird die Kette nicht, da bin ich mir sehr sicher.
Also alles im grünen Bereich wie ich finde
Schöne Grüße
Andi
Lila Pausen 2022:
Almeria 25.04. bis 29.04.
Pannoniaring 29.08. und 30.08.
Andi
Lila Pausen 2022:
Almeria 25.04. bis 29.04.
Pannoniaring 29.08. und 30.08.
- Gralssucher
- Fjeedi-Ritter
- Beiträge: 5455
- Registriert: 30 Dez 2003 17:00
- ZXR-Modellreihe: ZXR 800
Re: Mythos - Leistung durch schmalere Kette?
veiderer hat geschrieben:...
Habs ja erst vor 2 Wochen selber gemerkt als ich die 530 in der einen und die 520 in der anderen Hand und dann das gleiche nochaml umgekehrt hatte.
Das merkt man schon....
haettest du auch hier nachlesen koennen.-was bringt ein Kettenwexel?
530er Teilung
-Ritzel,16Z: 300gr
-Kettenblatt,Stahl,44Z: 1060gr
-Kette,110Gl: 2250gr
___________
3610gr
520er Teilung
-Ritzel,16Z: 175gr
-Kettenblatt,46Z,Alu: 360gr
-Kette,110Gl: 1850gr
_____________
2385gr
Gewichtsersparniss: 1225gr.
Jo,Charles,son langer dunkler Winter ohne Freundin ist schon hart....Terrini hat geschrieben: Wir haben mal - laaange ist es her, mit einer FZR1000 Prüfstandläufe gemacht. Dabei ging es primär darum, ob verschiedene Kettenfette Leistung kosten.
Ja, so was hat uns damals interessiert ....
da macht man dann Pruefstandslaeufe mit verschiedenen Kettenfetten
___________________________
Meine Definition von Glück?
Keine Termine und leicht einen sitzen.
(Harald Juhnke)
MZ BK 380 / Kawa ZXR 802 / Triumph Thruxton 1200 R / RT125-3 (in Teilen aufm Dachboden...)
2023: 20jähriges Forenjubiläum...
Meine Definition von Glück?
Keine Termine und leicht einen sitzen.
(Harald Juhnke)
MZ BK 380 / Kawa ZXR 802 / Triumph Thruxton 1200 R / RT125-3 (in Teilen aufm Dachboden...)
2023: 20jähriges Forenjubiläum...
Re: Mythos - Leistung durch schmalere Kette?
Hätte er ne Freundin gehabt hätte er Gleitgel getestet
- Terrini
- Pimperella die Fruchtbarkeitsgöttin
- Beiträge: 7034
- Registriert: 18 Sep 2002 17:59
- ZXR-Modellreihe: anderes Mopped
- Kontaktdaten:
Re: Mythos - Leistung durch schmalere Kette?
ich hatte früher wechselnde Partner und nicht unbedingt "Leerzeiten", Ihr hämischen alten Säcke, das flutschte auch ohne Fett oder Gel .
Ist ist ja durchaus legitim, sich für Technik und auch die anderen Annehmlichkeiten des Lebens zu begeistern, oderrr?
Ist ist ja durchaus legitim, sich für Technik und auch die anderen Annehmlichkeiten des Lebens zu begeistern, oderrr?
keinen Bock mehr auf Signaturen
Re: Mythos - Leistung durch schmalere Kette?
@ Gralsucher:
die Tabelle bzw. das Thema hab ich sogar am Handy als Lesezeichen direkt drin.
Hab mich da schon eingelesen.
Aber das dann selber merken is noch was anderes als schwarze Schrift auf grünem Grund - quasi erlebt man dann halt die eigentliche Bestätigung von dem, was man vorher gelesen und dann erwartet hat
Bin ja nicht so der Vielschreiber, ich les mir viel durch hier und lern da auch und dann schau ich, was ich davon für mich nutzen kann
die Tabelle bzw. das Thema hab ich sogar am Handy als Lesezeichen direkt drin.
Hab mich da schon eingelesen.
Aber das dann selber merken is noch was anderes als schwarze Schrift auf grünem Grund - quasi erlebt man dann halt die eigentliche Bestätigung von dem, was man vorher gelesen und dann erwartet hat
Bin ja nicht so der Vielschreiber, ich les mir viel durch hier und lern da auch und dann schau ich, was ich davon für mich nutzen kann
Schöne Grüße
Andi
Lila Pausen 2022:
Almeria 25.04. bis 29.04.
Pannoniaring 29.08. und 30.08.
Andi
Lila Pausen 2022:
Almeria 25.04. bis 29.04.
Pannoniaring 29.08. und 30.08.